Old Believer discussion on faith and identity in America: old believer priest vs old believer priestless faithful

Спор вокруг фильма «Красная Аляска» постепенно трансформировался в занимательную дискуссию между поповцами и беспоповцами Америки. Особенно интересной стала эта дискуссия после того, как в нее включился пожизненно запрещенный архиепископом Софронием бывший настоятель прихода в Данденонге (Австралия) о. Павел Фефелов. Сейчас он живет в Canby, штат Орегон. Предлагаем вниманию наших друзей этот поучительный разговор.

+++

  1. o.Pavel

    Canby

    February 27, 1:44 am

    One truth that Andy and his old believer friends have repeated is that they are true OLD believers. Their modern-day version of true OLD believer religion predates Christianity to the days of Pagan Russia. A time in Russian history, full of pagan ritual and void of any Holy Sacraments.
    The other truth that Andy has stated is the fact that The Old Rite Church truly belongs to the NEWLY baptized religion of Christ, baptized by the Holy Spirit of Christ Himself – the New Testament of Christ.
    These are undisputed facts as we can see that Andy is well educated. His use and spelling of words like “religise sicoligist” are proof and are very reassuring.

+++

2. Ivan
Mexiko
February 27, 5:08 am
I have several questions for O Pavel,Did you ever talk to the actors/your followers in the making of Red Alaska Documentary?Did you ask them why they expressed such negative statements in the movie about other surrounding communities? Many of them are not true!Do you approve Nat Geo filming and support your actors Dom, George and Kira in the making of Red Alaska Documentary?The reason I ask is you as their Отец (according to Luba) you are not trying to contain the situation but you try to reverse the words other people post on the blog. You being as your followers hi ranking figure should be setting an example of Holy fathers that are read in the scripture. We can go on and on dating back to the early settlement in Nikolaevsk and keep bringing up the problems in the community till now, for what?We know that at one time we all were one religion and attended the same church in Nikolaevsk, that means you and I, until you and your followers found something new and went your own way. To make the story short, why don’t you people go your way and we’ll go ours?I think things were fine before Nat Geo showed up, I wonder why they would even publish such a documentary?I remember Nat Geo publishing a 1972 magazine about Nikolaevsk and people, I still think they did a great job then, I still like to read it once in a while.I wonder how Nat Geo’s Maeve McDermott sleeps at night knowingly what turmoil she has caused by posting such a documentary, I hope not to see Nat Geo in these neck of woods ever!

3. ak49ian
March 1, 11:25 pm
It’s almost funny how the new believers “Popejniki” have been exposed as silly reality stars, nothing more, yet they keep debating the Old Believers. Even their Fathers are all a part of it (Father Nik, Father Pavel).O.Pavel, I have no idea about your age but if you are over 30-40 you will remember one true thing about the Old Believer church. And that is- the Old Believers know about the holy sacraments. Indeed, without that, the church teaches that one’s chance for salvation is pretty much zero to none (if we’re talking about the same thing, that is. English is my second language).The Old Believers get it.And you also get it.So that to me sounds like everybody agrees.But remember this- THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THE TRUE BEGINNING. Your people chose to ignore that bit of very important information by going and joining and mixing with the modern day priests (substitutes). Too many schisms have made it impossible to sort out who actually has the authority to exercise the holy rituals.You believe it isn’t possible for the Old Believers to enter the gates of Heaven without your priests. That is exactly how the Old Believers feel about your “substitute ” priests. What one thinks is Holy can quite possibly be NOT. Sounds to me like it’s sort of a gamble on both sides….So let’s once again get to the point. This discussion should not be about religion. This discussion is happening only because a bunch of degenerates got together and starred in a film. Even that is not all. The real problem is that they have the gonads to call themselves Old Believers.Please, let’s not call an Apple an Orange.

4. o.Pavel
Canby
March 6, 1:30 am
In an answer to Ivan from Mexico:
Did you ever talk to the actors/your followers in the making of Red Alaska Documentary?
Yes I have they, are all related to me. They are as much my followers as you are to your leaders.Did you ask them why they expressed such negative statements in the movie about other surrounding communities? Many of them are not true!
The negative nature of the film is the way Nat Geo wanted to portray their film. They wanted a reaction. This is a sensationalized version of the truth, i.e. twisted truth. What was actually said and what was edited, and how it was edited, are two different things.Do you approve Nat Geo filming and support your actors Dom, George and Kira in the making of Red Alaska Documentary?
I disapproved the whole project from the start. I knew, from the previous Nat Geo projects, that it would end up a disaster. I no longer live in Nikolaevsk and have very little influence over these people. Nat Geo called me to allow them to use some of my work on their show but I absolutely refused. The direction that Nat Geo took with this film is shameful to say the least. To exploit a painful struggle in an, otherwise, astonishing community is heart breaking. Nat Geo took the trust of a grassroots society and spat in their face. The sad part of all of this is they got away with it, as they new they could. The above named (actors) and what they are speak for them selves.The reason I ask is you as their Отец (according to Luba) you are not trying to contain the situation but you try to reverse the words other people post on the blog. You being as your followers hi ranking figure should be setting an example of Holy fathers that are read in the scripture. We can go on and on dating back to the early settlement in Nikolaevsk and keep bringing up the problems in the community till now, for what?
You have to agree with me that every person will feel hurt when they are falsely accused. Many of the comments on this blog are absolutely false. Therefore, some people have no choice but to answer in rebuttal. They have no choice but to guard their faith and feelings. Our Holy Forefathers saw this happen time and time again. Throughout Christian history you will find Christians stand up for truth, create councils, and set laws. These laws still apply today. When the community of Nikolaevsk or Old Rite Christians in general, is threatened with fraudulent accusations, there is no choice but to disprove these false accusations. This is not the first time in history that Christians stood their ground.We know that at one time we all were one religion and attended the same church in Nikolaevsk, that means you and I, until you and your followers found something new and went your own way.
We did go our own way. We made a choice for the salvation of our souls. We revived what was lost in the last 300 years. We still pray the same as you. We read the same books as you. We sing the same hymns as you. We cross our bodies with the same two fingers as you. The difference – we fulfill ALL of the required Sacred Sacraments.I think things were fine before Nat Geo showed up, I wonder why they would even publish such a documentary?
Sensationalism! Profits! Ratings!I remember Nat Geo publishing a 1972 magazine about Nikolaevsk and people, I still think they did a great job then, I still like to read it once in a while.
That was National Geographic’s magazine. My photo is featured in that article, I was a teenager then. I still have a copy in my library. Nat Geo is a distant illegitimate relative. Sort of like the difference between the Old Rite and Old Believers:-)In answer to ak49ian:
It’s almost funny how the new believers “Popejniki” have been exposed as silly reality stars, nothing more, yet they keep debating the Old Believers. Even their Fathers are all a part of it (Father Nik, Father Pavel).
It IS hilarious how you can belittle other human beings – God’s creation. How you can show your attained status in front of God. How you have already judged those that God has yet to judge. Belittling and calling people names only shows how simpleminded you are. Do you even know what “Popejniki” means and what it stands for?O.Pavel, I have no idea about your age but if you are over 30-40 you will remember one true thing about the Old Believer church. And that is- the Old Believers know about the holy sacraments.
Most certainly they KNOW ABOUT them – but do they practice them?Indeed, without that, the church teaches that one’s chance for salvation is pretty much zero to none (if we’re talking about the same thing, that is. English is my second language).
The Old Believers get it.
And you also get it.
So that to me sounds like everybody agrees.
Glory to God in Heaven, at last, one Old Believer has stated an undisputed fact.But remember this- THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THE TRUE BEGINNING. Your people chose to ignore that bit of very important information by going and joining and mixing with the modern day priests (substitutes). Too many schisms have made it impossible to sort out who actually has the authority to exercise the holy rituals.
THE TRUE BEGINNING was Jesus Christ Himself. His Apostles were His SUBSTITUTES. They laid hands on future bishops who became their substitutes and so on and so on until today. To say otherwise is to call Jesus a fraud. I was ordained in the same fashion, to be His substitute – to teach His Word. He also gave you a choice, either to accept or reject His Word.You believe it isn’t possible for the Old Believers to enter the gates of Heaven without your priests.
I have no authority to judge you. God will be your judge. My responsibility is to show you the Light. Whether you follow the Light or sit in your darkness is up to you.That is exactly how the Old Believers feel about your “substitute ” priests. What one thinks is Holy can quite possibly be NOT. Sounds to me like it’s sort of a gamble on both sides….
So take the gamble without Sacraments – I choose to be with Them.So let’s once again get to the point. This discussion should not be about religion. This discussion is happening only because a bunch of degenerates got together and starred in a film.
And you and I are two degenerates discussing these people. How is that going to make us better when we face God’s Judgment?Even that is not all. The real problem is that they have the gonads to call themselves Old Believers.
Please, let’s not call an Apple an Orange.
Apples or Oranges, we have only One God – One Creator.Forgive me a sinner.
o.Pavel

5. ak49ian

March 9, 3:52 pm
O.Pavel, you were doing quite a well up until you said this- “We know that at one time we all were one religion and attended the same church in Nikolaevsk, that means you and I, until you and your followers found something new and went your own way.”You see, for some reason, you can’t stick to the truth, in the end you still went and added that last bit about “until you and your followers [meaning the Old Believers] found something new and went your own way”.No. That is incorrect. You just can’t help yourself, can you? Seems that you just HAVE to twist and mix the truth with distortion. Be careful with that. The Old Believers kept their old ways. YOU WENT YOUR OWN WAY.Then you say “Belittling and calling people names only shows how simpleminded you are. Do you even know what “Popejniki” means and what it stands for?” I agree that name calling is simpleminded. That’s why I avoid doing that. You see, I worked with a “Popejnik” who happened to call himself just that. It is quite the same as calling the Old Believers “Bezpopovtsi”. I’m not offended, and neither should you be.You say “Glory to God in Heaven, at last, one Old Believer has stated an undisputed fact.” Well, the truth is that the Old Believers have been providing undisputed facts to your people since the day you went in search of Holy people in disrupted churches.“To say otherwise is to call Jesus a fraud. I was ordained in the same fashion, to be His substitute – to teach His Word. He also gave you a choice, either to accept or reject His Word.” What have I said that tells you I called “Jesus a fraud”? Are you even reading what was written in the above posts? Better yet, do you reread your own before posting?I accept His word. I know Jesus is the true beginning. I know the apostles were His “substitutes” for lack of a better word. All of the Old Believers know that. But here is the catch- There are a lot of different churches that DO practice the “Holy Sacraments” (I don’t know how else to say that). Are you with them? I mean, with any and all of the churches around the world. Or do you try to make sure that the church is actually pure before joining? You see, just because someone practices the Holy Sacraments doesn’t mean that they come from the ORIGINAL church. Therein lies the problem.I agree that neither of us has the authority to judge anyone. That is why I said in the previous post ” Sounds to me like it’s sort of a gamble on both sides….” To my understanding, your gamble is that the church you joined has direct connections to the pure and original church. The Old Believers’ gamble is that rather than to join a corrupt church, they will try their best to KEEP their church pure (can’t damage the foundation, or the top will crumble upon you).You are correct when you say you read the same books as the Old Believers do, unless, somewhere along the way, you acquired new books…because for some reason you missed the parts on the importance of purity in the true church. So, to say that the Old Believers’ gamble is without Sacraments is incorrect. Every true Christian must take them. But first, the people with authority from the original church must be found…“And you and I are two degenerates discussing these people. How is that going to make us better when we face God’s Judgment?” I’m am quite sure that I am not any better than anyone else. Most importantly, I’m am sure I would not be here discussing this film if it did not exist in the first place. I must say, though, if someone does not wish to be called a “degenerate” (sorry for the strong word choice), then that particular person should not act like one. And, in my humble opinion, there were quite a few scenes that made even me cringe, a sinner.“Apples or Oranges, we have only One God – One Creator.” Again, I’m sorry, I can be such a ditz sometimes- Did I miss the part where someone said that there are more than One God-More than One Creator? Strange….I don’t recall reading or writing that. But wait, maybe it’s because…Воистинну, there IS only One God-On Creator.Forgive me, a sinner.You say “

6.o.Pavel

March 10, 9:37 pm
AK49ian,
You keep beating us over the head about the PURITY of “bespopovtsi”.
Please enlighten us with a list of pure religious doctrine that the “bespopovtsi” follow – what they base their belief on i.e. their Creed.
Doctrine that you can back up with passages from “Kormchia”, “Nomokanon” and teachings from Holy Fathers like the Apostles, Basil the Great, John Chrysostom, etc. etc.
When you can do that, we will all know the truth.

7. ak49ian

March 11, 12:58 am
o.Pavel, I never intended to debate your beliefs or to beat you over the head about anything. I am sorry if you feel that way. I have felt the need to clarify a few things in the above comments and so I did.It is obvious that you have found your truth and will not change your mind (and I more than likely will not, either). There are hundreds of other beliefs that you and I could debate, but why would we, right? Same goes for the Popovsti and Bezpopovtsi.Which brings me to the issue at hand: If or when the cameras start rolling again, please, for the sake of all of us (you and me), tell your people to lay off of the Old Believers. Long ago you have gone your way, tell them to get over it. There is no feud. Nobody is out to get anybody. Tell the world about yourselves. Anything you want. But leave the Old Believers out of it.You wrote that you disapproved of the project from the start and I applaud you for that. But, isn’t there some sort of punishment for those who did participate, including Father Nik? If any of the Old Believers’ priests took part in something like this, they would quite quickly be removed from their position. Not only should he not have participated, he should have been making sure that nobody from his church did.And no, that is not according to “man made laws” like some claim the Old Believers go by. I’m sure that you will agree when I say this: When Nat Geo initially approached your people, everybody should have kindly said “No, thank you. Leave us alone” and sent the back to wherever..That would have been the “Old Believer way”.I do ask for forgiveness, as it is the time of Great Lent. I should not be here causing a stir.

8. 907

March 11, 4:55 am
Ak 49ian. I don’t think “popejniks” have any kind of punishments on being filmed. If you go to utube and search for alaska old believers all u get is father nik and his church on camera being interviewed. You would think father nik would disapprove but actually he’s the first guy on camera. What kind of leadership is that? Can’t be old believer if you ask me. And on this show “Red Alaska” they put a camera right next to the icon, they were praying into the camera.
Looks like these guys were eager to get on the show and start talking about the real old believers.
I say bravo go ahead keep the red alaska show going rock on more power for popejniks but just don’t go to old believer communities “voznesnka, razdolna, selo, etc” and talk about them.

9. o.Pavel

March 12, 11:24 am
God Forgives! AK 49ian.
I firmly believe in the following passages from the Bible:
1 Corinthians 4:5: So don’t make judgments about anyone ahead of time–before the Lord returns. For he will bring our darkest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. Then God will give to each one whatever praise is due.
Romans 2:1: You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things.
Luke 6:37: Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others, or it will all come back against you. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven.
Mark 16:15: And He said to them, “Go into the entire world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Luke 11:33: No one lights a lamp and then hides it or puts it under a basket. Instead, a lamp is placed on a stand, where its light can be seen by all who enter the house. Your eye is a lamp that provides light for your body. When your eye is good, your whole body is filled with light. But when it is bad, your body is filled with darkness. Make sure that the light you think you have is not actually darkness. If you are filled with light, with no dark corners, then your whole life will be radiant, as though a floodlight were filling you with light.”God Bless you all!

10. ak49ian

March 12, 7:04 pm
Thank you for that, but I wonder if you actually read it. In your January posts, you were likening people to “a wall of hallucinating African chimps”, and calling out some Old Believers by name and as “scum”, “pedofiles”, “rapists”, etc. Practice what you preach, my man, and God WILL forgive. :)

11. ak49ian

March 12, 7:18 pm
By the way, that was addressed to you, o.Pavel. Those were quotes from your posts. Pretty nasty stuff, but I’m sure that you meant well. Nobody is perfect. You’re forgiven, just not forgotten.

12. o.Pavel

March 12, 11:30 pm
1 Corinthians 6:7: Why not just accept the injustice and leave it at that? Why not let yourselves be cheated? Instead, you yourselves are the ones who do wrong and cheat even your fellow believers. Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.

13. ak49ian

March 13, 2:45 pm
Good Point. Let’s leave it at that.

 

Реклама

Об авторе old believers

Old Believers and Old Ritualists Join us if you want to make our Old Believer and Old Rite Church pure! Paul, Max and all our faithful team
Запись опубликована в рубрике Old Believers, USA с метками , , , . Добавьте в закладки постоянную ссылку.

2 комментария на «Old Believer discussion on faith and identity in America: old believer priest vs old believer priestless faithful»

  1. Аноним:

    A perevod to mojeno?

  2. o.Pavel:

    Чтобы народу боле понять ответы № 4.

    In an answer to Ivan from Mexico:

    “Did you ever talk to the actors/your followers in the making of Red Alaska Documentary?”

    Yes I have they, are all related to me. They are as much my followers as you are to your leaders.

    “Did you ask them why they expressed such negative statements in the movie about other surrounding communities? Many of them are not true!”

    The negative nature of the film is the way Nat Geo wanted to portray their film. They wanted a reaction. This is a sensationalized version of the truth, i.e. twisted truth. What was actually said and what was edited, and how it was edited, are two different things.

    “Do you approve Nat Geo filming and support your actors Dom, George and Kira in the making of Red Alaska Documentary?”

    I disapproved the whole project from the start. I knew, from the previous Nat Geo projects, that it would end up a disaster. I no longer live in Nikolaevsk and have very little influence over these people. Nat Geo called me to allow them to use some of my work on their show but I absolutely refused. The direction that Nat Geo took with this film is shameful to say the least. To exploit a painful struggle in an, otherwise, astonishing community is heart breaking. Nat Geo took the trust of a grassroots society and spat in their face. The sad part of all of this is they got away with it, as they new they could. The above named (actors) and what they are speak for them selves.

    “The reason I ask is you as their Отец (according to Luba) you are not trying to contain the situation but you try to reverse the words other people post on the blog. You being as your followers hi ranking figure should be setting an example of Holy fathers that are read in the scripture. We can go on and on dating back to the early settlement in Nikolaevsk and keep bringing up the problems in the community till now, for what?”

    You have to agree with me that every person will feel hurt when they are falsely accused. Many of the comments on this blog are absolutely false. Therefore, some people have no choice but to answer in rebuttal. They have no choice but to guard their faith and feelings. Our Holy Forefathers saw this happen time and time again. Throughout Christian history you will find Christians stand up for truth, create councils, and set laws. These laws still apply today. When the community of Nikolaevsk or Old Rite Christians in general, is threatened with fraudulent accusations, there is no choice but to disprove these false accusations. This is not the first time in history that Christians stood their ground.

    “We know that at one time we all were one religion and attended the same church in Nikolaevsk, that means you and I, until you and your followers found something new and went your own way.”

    We did go our own way. We made a choice for the salvation of our souls. We revived what was lost in the last 300 years. We still pray the same as you. We read the same books as you. We sing the same hymns as you. We cross our bodies with the same two fingers as you. The difference – we fulfill ALL of the required Sacred Sacraments.

    “I think things were fine before Nat Geo showed up, I wonder why they would even publish such a documentary?”

    Sensationalism! Profits! Ratings!

    “I remember Nat Geo publishing a 1972 magazine about Nikolaevsk and people, I still think they did a great job then, I still like to read it once in a while.”

    That was National Geographic’s magazine. My photo is featured in that article, I was a teenager then. I still have a copy in my library. Nat Geo is a distant illegitimate relative. Sort of like the difference between the Old Rite and Old Believers:-)

    In answer to ak49ian:

    “It’s almost funny how the new believers “Popejniki” have been exposed as silly reality stars, nothing more, yet they keep debating the Old Believers. Even their Fathers are all a part of it (Father Nik, Father Pavel).”

    It IS hilarious how you can belittle other human beings – God’s creation. How you can show your attained status in front of God. How you have already judged those that God has yet to judge. Belittling and calling people names only shows how simpleminded you are. Do you even know what “Popejniki” means and what it stands for?

    “O.Pavel, I have no idea about your age but if you are over 30-40 you will remember one true thing about the Old Believer church. And that is- the Old Believers know about the holy sacraments.”

    Most certainly they KNOW ABOUT them – but do they practice them?

    “Indeed, without that, the church teaches that one’s chance for salvation is pretty much zero to none (if we’re talking about the same thing, that is. English is my second language).
    The Old Believers get it.
    And you also get it.
    So that to me sounds like everybody agrees.”

    Glory to God in Heaven, at last, one Old Believer has stated an undisputed fact.

    “But remember this- THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THE TRUE BEGINNING. Your people chose to ignore that bit of very important information by going and joining and mixing with the modern day priests (substitutes). Too many schisms have made it impossible to sort out who actually has the authority to exercise the holy rituals.”

    THE TRUE BEGINNING was Jesus Christ Himself. His Apostles were His SUBSTITUTES. They laid hands on future bishops who became their substitutes and so on and so on until today. To say otherwise is to call Jesus a fraud. I was ordained in the same fashion, to be His substitute – to teach His Word. He also gave you a choice, either to accept or reject His Word.

    “You believe it isn’t possible for the Old Believers to enter the gates of Heaven without your priests.”

    I have no authority to judge you. God will be your judge. My responsibility is to show you the Light. Whether you follow the Light or sit in your darkness is up to you.

    “That is exactly how the Old Believers feel about your “substitute ” priests. What one thinks is Holy can quite possibly be NOT. Sounds to me like it’s sort of a gamble on both sides….”

    So take the gamble without Sacraments – I choose to be with Them.

    “So let’s once again get to the point. This discussion should not be about religion. This discussion is happening only because a bunch of degenerates got together and starred in a film.”

    And you and I are two degenerates discussing these people. How is that going to make us better when we face God’s Judgment?

    “Even that is not all. The real problem is that they have the gonads to call themselves Old Believers.
    Please, let’s not call an Apple an Orange.”

    Apples or oranges, we have only One God – One Creator.

    Forgive me a sinner.
    o.Pavel

Добавить комментарий

Заполните поля или щелкните по значку, чтобы оставить свой комментарий:

Логотип WordPress.com

Для комментария используется ваша учётная запись WordPress.com. Выход / Изменить )

Фотография Twitter

Для комментария используется ваша учётная запись Twitter. Выход / Изменить )

Фотография Facebook

Для комментария используется ваша учётная запись Facebook. Выход / Изменить )

Google+ photo

Для комментария используется ваша учётная запись Google+. Выход / Изменить )

Connecting to %s